Queensland P76 Owners Club -American contact page 3

Hi again
Maybe I can save you all a few bucks. OK, here we go.

Mixing and Matching American models

On the subject of Pontiac "Tempest" heads.
: The 61-62 Pontiac Tempest came with the 215 V8 as an option.
: It is absolutely indentical to the 61-63 Buick 215 V8 which is identical to the early (pre SD-1) 3.5L V8.
: The Tempest heads offer NO advantage in flow to the Buick 215 or early Rover heads and certainly are no better than the P76 heads.
: Valve and port sizes are identical.
: The Buick/Rover heads use 5 studs around each cylinder.
: The P76 uses 4 studs.
: The 61-63 Oldsmobile 215 heads are a different design than the Buick/Rover heads and use 6 studs around each cylinder. They will ONLY fit Oldsmobile blocks.
: They will NOT fit a Buick/Rover or P76 block.
: Valve and port sizes are the same as the early Rover V8 but they use a different rocker set up. Those rockers are NOT at ALL like the P76 rockers.
: So, ditch the Tempest heads scenario.

: If you want better heads for your motor, go for a set of 1964 Buick 300 heads.
: They have larger ports and valves and will flow quite well.
: As for the relative prices of things.
: This is what one can expect to pay here in the states.

Parts and Prices

Buick 300 aluminum heads: $150-$175 (Don't pay to much for these. They ain't THAT rare!)
: Buick 350 Crankshaft: $50-$100 (68-80)
: Buick 350 Rods: $50-$60 (ONLY get the 75-80 type.
: Rod bolts for the 68-74 type are no longer made)
: Buick V6 or Buick 350 Front cover: $20 (good used)
: Buick HEI 350 Distributor: $20-$40
: Buich 350 - As far as the Buick 350 stuff goes, you'd get off a LOT cheaper by basically buying a WHOLE engine off of a guy and having him send you all of the parts. I know a couple gents that can do that. Say $150 for a whole motor (or CHEAPER!). Buick 350's are as common as dirt... and just about as valuable. Anybody that tells you different is going for a holdup! You can't use the Buick 350 heads so they go into the trash pile.

Greg's Project

It tells what I'm doing and what I think I can do for my project.
: Mind you, I've hit the books on this and compared a LOT of different parts to see what would fit and what would not.

The Motor

Couple years ago, I found a gent in Adalaide selling a complete P76 motor.
: The exchange rate was in my favor so I bought it and had it shipped to Boston.
: Took a few months but it got here in one piece. (Actually, in a crated and dissasembled).
: I'd never heard of the P76 until I read the David Hardcastle book on the Rover V8. I've always had a desire to tinker at things and thought "What if?"
: Since the P76 block is taller than the Buick 215 or Rover V8, what if a Buick 350 3.85" stroke crank can be made to fit.
: All Buick small block V8's and V6's are derived from the original Buick aluminum 215 of 61-63.
: So.. most parts are interchangeable.
: And since the P76 was also a derivative of that engine, I couldn't see why the Buick parts wouldn't fit.
: This is what I've come up with thus far.

Block:

P76 block to be sleeved out to 3.70".
: Block will be decked and align bored.
: Motor mount bosses will have to be drilled out for TR8 motor mounts (On the P76 block, there are two mount bosses but only one is drilled and tapped).
: Block must be relieved at the bottom of #1 and #8 cylinder.
: There are two small protrusions that stick out of the crankcse there and interfere
: with the rods as the crank turns.
: ARP studs will replace maincap bolts.
: I will be using Buick 300 maincaps in place of the P76 caps.
: They are a bit more meaty and fit the block tighter.
: This requires align BORING the tunnel to make them fit.

And therein lies "The Problem- Part 1".
: The P76 main bearing size is actually 2.5495" while the Buick 300 is 2.4999"
: As a consequence, The tunnel in the P76 block is a hair larger than the Buick 300 maincaps.
: I was thinking about having the tunnel slightly welded up, the oil passages redrilled and the whole thing aligned bored with the Buick 300 caps in place.
: That way I can use stock Buick 300 bearings as well. The other method (Which is what I'll probably do) is simply to have some spacers made to fit under the bearings and have the block align bored as well.

Crank

1970 Buick 350 c.i.d. V8, 3.85" stroke, nodular iron. Mains cut from 2.999" down to 2.4999".
: Shotpeened and ionized.
: Rear seal area and oil slinger on crank cut down to Buick 300 V8 size or Buick V6 size to fit a two piece neoprene seal and adapter.
: Therein lies the second problem.
: The Buick 300 and V6 rear maincap fits perfectly on the P76 block (I know because I've tried them BOTH in place), but the rear oil seal is different however.
: The P76 used a one piece rear seal.
: The seal area in the back of the block is larger than the Rover V8 so I can't use the standard Buick 300 crankshaft adapter available over here.
: I was thinking of using another Buick V6 rear cap, measuring and cutting the back out of it (in the shape of a cresent) and fitting it into the seal area of the block.
: When done right, it should fit tightly up against the Buick 300 cap on top.
: I think Rods: 75-80 Buick 350. 6.38" center to center.
: Held together with capscrews and are the toughest (and longest) available.
: Since crank and rods were designed to work together, not a lot of rebalancing is required. Buick 350 rods are the only ones that will work with the combination I'm trying.
: They have a more "sloped shoulder" than the P76 or Buick/Rover rods.
: This is for cam clearance.
: They are also cast and a bit heavier than the P76 steel rods.

Pistons

Looks like Ford straight 6 pistons will work with either the rods bushed or the piston pin holes honed from .921" out to .940". Or... have the rods bushed to fit the Ford pins.

Balancer

Stock Buick 350

Front cover

Stock Buick V6 with oil pump, and water pump.
: (Fits P76 engine quite nicely!
: Buick waterpumps are a whole lot cheaper than Rover ones too!
: P76 ones are unobtainable over here). Buick 215/300/340 and 350 V8 front covers will also fit.

Heads

64 Buick 300 with 1.73" intake and 1.50" exhaust.
: A good street porting job as well.
: These heads oil through the block like the Rover V8 heads.
: The P76 block oiled the head through the pushrods like late Buick V8's so there are NO oil passages in the block.
: Note: I've come up with several possible combinations on how to fit them to the P76 block:

: 1) After market adjustable roller rockers from T&D Machine at around $500 a set.
: Ratio is 1.60:1. When used with 70 - 80 Buick 350 hydraulic lifters (which oil through the pushrods like the P76) they are a good match.

: 2) A cheaper way to go is to use the aforementioned Buick 350 lifters with stock 70-80 Buick rocker arms, which are also oiled through the pushrods, with custom rocker shafts to hold them.
: Ratio is 1.55:1.
: This will requireadjustable pushrods.
: The original Buick 350 rocker shafts space the the rocker arms differently than the Buick/Rover 215.
: This is why custom shafts have to be fabricated.

: 3) The cheapest way to go (the way I like the best) is to just use the stock Buick 300/Rover V8 rockers and shafts (they are identicle) along with the hollow P76 pushrods and 350 lifters.
: I'm told by several Buick guys thatoiling the top end via this method is actually OK.

Bearings

rods - stock Buick 215/300/340/350 bearings (They are all the same).
: Mains - stock Buick 300 bearings.
: The orginal P76 bearings have no equivalent on this side of the pond that I can find.
: They use thrust washers instead of a full circle thrust bearing.
: I prefer the Buick bearings.

Intake

Alloy 64 Buick 300 4barrel dual plane with 600 CFM Carter carb.
: Must fabricate spacers.
: Intake is wider than the Buick/Rover item and narrower than the P76 intake.
: Ports are slightly larger however.
: I've seen the single plane intake for the P76 offered by Wilpower in Australia.
: Looks nice.
: John Harcourt in New Zealand has said he'd make me adapter plates in any width I wanted.
: The stock P76 intake fits a Rochester 2bbl.
: No interest in that.
: Note: I've also discovered in my trips to the junkyard that the cast iron 66-67 Buick 340 V8 4bbl intake is similar in width to the P76 intake.
: Side by side though the P76 intake is a hair narrower.

Gaskets

I have two ways to go for the head gaskets.
: Fel-pro makes a composite gasket for the Buick 300 which will work with the larger bore.
: It is much thicker than the tin one, but for me it will work out fine.
: I need it to drop compression down to a reasonable level when the Ford 6 pistons are used.
: I will also have to take a little out of the combustion chambers of the heads.
: 10 to 1 is what I want.
: I can also use composite gaskets for the Rover 3.9 V8.

Distributor

Rebuilt and recurved Buick 350 HEI electronic. This distibutor was available for 74-81 on all Buick 350 V8's. Fits the P76 and all early Rover v8's.

Flywheel

D&D Fabrications in Michigan makes a special flywheel for dropping a Buick 300 3.4" stroke crank into a Buick/Rover V8.
: This can also be used for my application because the bolt patterns on the 350 and 300 cranks are identical but requires rebalancing.
: I've since aquired a stock Buick 350 flywheel from a Jeep guy (Buick 350's came in Jeeps in the late '60's).
: It will have to be cut down to fit a Rover V8 ring gear.

Cam

haven't decided yet.
: Don't quite know where to begin.

Bellhousing

Rover V8. Since the motor is going into a TR7, I'll have to use that to re-use the 5-speed. I don't have one yet but I'm looking.
: I also have a stock Buick 215 bellhousing which will fit up a BW T-5 5-speed.
: So thats the idea.
: So far, I've cut the crank down and made sure it fit up with the rods and a dummy piston.
: Yep, looks like it's a go! Rods clear the cam at full turn but some small amount of releiving is required on the
: internal oil passage.
: Not enough to break through though.
: I just won't have the oil passages drilled larger.
: Be advised, only the Buick 350 rods can be used in this combination.
: They have a "sloped" shoulder for cam clearance.
: If one tried to use the P76 rods, (and they are real good rods) the top of the rod bolt would strike the cam.
: Torque is what I'm after.
: If I can get 360 ft/lbs, I'm happy.
: Compression will be around 10:1.
: Final displacement will be 5.4 litres or 331 CID.

Any comments?

I don't have a clue how all of this is going to work out.
: I'll send you a few pix of the "developement" as I go along.
: Now, rip it up with your opinions.
: Tell me where I'm falling down, I love a challenge!
: I had some correspondence with a gent named Roy Gardner some time back and he tells me the P76 block is made of inferior alloy and may not stand up to what I'm planning.
: Any thoughts on that as well? I'm not going to rev the engine beyond 5500 rpm.
: Also a gent named Peter Kent.
: They have been very encouraging.
: As time, money and information come in, I'll proceed.
: Which begs the question "Why?". My answer would be "Why not?".
: Yes, Ford and Chevy V8's are a dime a dozen and a whole lot cheaper to build, but, why not try something different.

: Take Care

: Greg Williams

PS

OK, there ya go. You want it! You GOT it! I'm stuck for funds, but I won't be for long.
: THEN, I'm off to the races! I've sent a pic of the cut down Buick 350 crank sitting in the P76 block.
: The crank has had the rear seal area and oil slinger cut to Buick 300/V6 size.
: As you can see, there's a LOT of daylight that needs to be filled up.
: Also notice that it sticks back farther than a P76 crank does as well.
: So if cost is an issue, better go with a Ford V8.

: Take care

: Greg

Leyland P76 Owners 2004

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